Coaching a Business Analysis Mindset with Fabricio Laguna

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In this conversation, Fabricio Laguna and I explore coaching the business analysis mindset to foster a corporate culture and the importance of carrying compassion for humans alongside IT.

Fabricio is a consultant and trainer known as The Brazilian BA. He loves business analysis and likes to explain complex things in an approachable and charming way.

Here are just a few of the highlights in this episode:

๐Ÿง‘๐Ÿปโ€๐Ÿ’ป ๐ŸฅŠ ๐ŸฅŠ ๐ŸฅŠ ""A business analyst is just a programmer that was punched in the head many times." Fabricio shares how he graduated in computer science and started as a programmer when an old guy with very white hair told him that from now on, he would be responsible for talking to the users.

๐Ÿง‘๐Ÿปโ€๐Ÿซ ๐Ÿช„ ๐Ÿคฏ "The main role of the business analyst in an organisation is to foster a mindset of business analysis." Fabricio sees two types of business analysts, one abstract and one specific. He observes that traditionally business analysis was related to creating documentation and bureaucracy, but it is changing. Today, the primary role of the (specific) professional business analyst is to foster a mindset of business analysis in the (abstract) organisation. Fabricio emphasises that this responsibility is about evolving business analysis practices in the organisation.

๐Ÿงถ ๐Ÿงฃ ๐Ÿ“ˆ "It's not very hard to show the value of business analysis." Fabricio believes an issue lies in people's lack of understanding of what business analysis is. He advises that the key is to convey that business analysis is related to understanding problems and making better decisions on how to solve those problems or seize the opportunities. Fabricio concludes that it's helpful to share techniques and concepts to demonstrate this value.

๐Ÿง‘๐Ÿปโ€๐Ÿ’ผ ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿค– ๐Ÿฆพ "Business analysts can even change business behaviour just by chatting with artificial intelligence." Fabricio imagines a future where AI can execute business analysis commands through natural language. He believes that AI armed with business transactional data and the organisations' knowledge base, can help businesses to be nimble in sensing and responding to change. Fabricio stresses the importance of these AI users possessing a good understanding of business analysis practices when doing so.

๐Ÿค— "To do business analysis well, we must have compassion." Fabricio says that having compassion is crucial for conducting successful business analysis. He defines compassion as "with passion" in Portuguese and emphasises that it is about feeling pain and joy. Fabricio highlights that compassion should be extended to all people and the planet.

๐Ÿงฐ ๐ŸŽฏ "A business is a collection of components." We finish up with some thoughts about business change and configuring the business operations for better business outcomes.

Tune into the episode below or listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast player of choice. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

Brought to you by Business Change Academy skills development and career building business analysis courses.

The transcript of this episode can be read here.

  • [00:54] Fabricio shares his upbringing from programmer to business analyst
  • [06:52] The ambiguity of roles versus job titles
  • [10:29] Differentiation between specific and abstract business analysts
  • [14:41] Creating a corporate culture of the business analysis mindset
  • [16:33] Helping people understand the value of business analysis
  • [22:21] Imagining a day in the life of a business analyst in 2035
  • [27:14] Unleashing the power of AI to effect business decisions
  • [31:50] Feeling pain and showing compassion for everybody and everything
  • [31:27] Losing the IT accent and doing business analysis for business
  • [39:45] Interconnectedness between business analysis and change

What was your favourite quote or insight from this episode? Please let me know in the comments. ๐Ÿ‘‡๐Ÿ‘‡๐Ÿ‘‡

๐Ÿง  Add your brains to the  ๐Ÿ‘‰ Future Business Analyst survey.

Joe Newbert 0:00
Hey everyone is Joe. Welcome to another episode of the future business analyst podcast. My guest today is for bit co Laguna consultant and trainer, the Brazilian ba you might rather know him as he likes to explain complex things in an approachable and charming way. I think I'm ready to be charmed by you today, Fabrizio. So welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.

Speaker 2 0:27
Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a pleasure for me to be here.

Joe Newbert 0:31
I'm glad you are. It's been a, it's been a long time coming. I think you and I saying hello to each other catching up and things. Can we start off with a little bit of your history, I don't know a great deal about your sort of upbringing in business analysis, how you came to be in this space. So when you just share your story with us plates,

Speaker 2 0:54
right, like many of the BAS that I know, I came from it. I am graduated in computer science. And I started as a programmer. During the last millennium, it's also

Speaker 2 1:16
I was in a starting my career. And I was in the top of technology, I was programming in this new language called Java. Okay, everybody, we use it to hear it say, Oh, that's cool stuff. That's new stuff. And I started working in a project. When I where I was the programmer, and there was this old guy, very white hair, he was probably my father's each. And he was the analyst. He was responsible for talking with the users understanding the needs, and I use it to look for that guy and see Oh, but he's so outdated about technology. He call, he needs my help to configure his email on his notebook, because it doesn't know how to do that. At that time, we were still using Windows 95. And I was helping him to, to use this new technology. And I thought to myself, Oh, I'm learning Java. But when I look at for that old guy, I said, Oh, he's so much more important than than I have. Because he's able to deal with all these people and decide what has to be done. And I've hear programming right now I have my space. But I was trying to understand how could he do that? And at some point in that, in that project, he called me in and said, oh, probably So for now, all you were going to be responsible for talking to the users, okay? And I said, Oh, wait, I can't do that. I'm just a programmer. I'm not an analyst. And he told me Don't say that any long in your in your life. Because an analyst is just a programmer that was punched in the head very much time, and decided to learn the best way to do stuff and stop losing their, their time. I was looking for that old guy and saying, oh, what he knows, is very less volatile than the technology that I know. He loves how to deal with people to manage a meeting to define goals to define what people need at the time. We don't even call it requirements yet, just what they need, and put that into some kind of specification or something like that, in pray to get an agreement with all those different parts of the organization. I thought I must learn that if I want to have a job when I'm his old, I should not rely on technology because technology is going to change. But those abilities are not so volatile, though their ability to understand people to talk with people to manage expectations. That's very more strong and probably useful whenever I am or wherever I am. So I decided to change my career and point to that analyst job we didn't call business analyst at that time it was less millennial right before iba was founded or something like that. Yeah. But that was a changing point in my career. So I started working more as an analyst I had I had my own software house, where I took the role of talking to customers and understanding what they need at the time I still I was to programming and doing analysis when my life as it as it grow. I occasionally started doing just analysis, and I started working as a trainer. So I have been training people for more than 20 years. And I started with Analysis objector orientation. And project management started with doing requirements, requirements engineering. And at some point, I just realized that bar there was a certification for alanine their national institutes, created on Canada call it International Institute of business analysis. And I decided to bet in my career, change it to business analysis, kind of by accident, but I really enjoy it that I got passionate about it. And I was the first Latina American certified as a business. Oh, wow. Freshman.

Joe Newbert 5:39
Okay. Okay, is an amazing achievement. Yeah. Okay. So, background in computer science background in programming, some nice old white haired man sort of lifted the lid on on business analysis for you. And then you progressed, one of the things I was thinking about, as you sort of closed out at the end there, you started to list a number of roles that you you'd got on sort of similar experience in so adjacent roles may be roles like project manager, etc. And I do feel like that's a trait of many people in the past that they sort of had spent some time in some similar roles, being able to build up a foundation of good skills across those disciplines. But I feel like roles are changing, like they're big, there are becoming a lot more roles now a lot more specialized roles, you know, in user research or in product, you know, there's a number of different specializations do, do you think the opportunity is going to be there in future for people to gain sort of the kind of diverse experience that perhaps we were fortunate to in the past?

Speaker 2 6:52
I guess. So. When we talk about roles, I confess that that word that's kind of ambiguous for me, because sometimes when people say about our role, they're seeing about a duty or are offended that someone presents to an occasion to a specific context. And some, sometimes it's very related to job titles. So I'm playing that role. So that means that you were you have that role in your in your name, or something like this, like, these things are really somewhere. And I must confess that I had never had the job title of a business analyst in all my life, okay, I have been a business analyst, all my life is the value that I understand that I provided. Even when I was the, let's say, CEO of my software house, I was playing the role of business analysts trying to understand the needs of my customers, and define what my team should be building. And today, I work very much as a consultant. So my my job titles, consultants, I call it for organizations, to help them to understand their problems and define what's the best course of action. And what I do is business analysis. So the value that I present is business analysis, I see that when you mentioned that there are a lot of different roles, I'm not sure if we're talking about values that are being provided, or if we're talking about job titles, because I can see there's a lot of different job titles on organizations like user experience, analyst, product analyst, professional, business owner, product owner, product manager, and all those job titles must provide business analysis as part of their role. Yeah, business analysis is so much important for all those professionals, all those job titles, and this ambiguity about a role in a job title. I'm not sure if just because of my of my words, as a Brazilian or if that's globally or problem. You're gonna know it probably better than I.

Joe Newbert 9:12
Yeah, no, definitely not going to call it out as being a Brazilian thing. I think that would be very, would be very unfair. No. Yeah, absolutely. Right. You know that there is a little bit of ambiguity, people have different ideas about job title versus role. I think when asked the question what I see your role as a hat, like you can wear different hats at different times to perform different duties, different functions, whether they are officially part of your job, or not. So so in the past, for example, there will be opportunity for me to try my hand at a number of things on a project where I've got the same job job title for the duration, but I've actually got the opportunity to get involved in a number of things that could be analysis, it could be design, it could be management, it It could be testing, it could be a number of things. My job title was whatever my job title was at the time. But I just took that opportunity to get stuck in and get involved. And I think the question I was trying to ask is that sort of opportunity, which used to be this quite easily, do you see that sort of diminishing as we do get the sort of more formal roles, and everybody having particular boxes that they, they perhaps work in?

Speaker 2 10:29
I think, I think it's, it's growing. So all those boxes that you mentioned, are boxes that need business analysis, are boxes that must business that is to be done, if it was going to be done by someone who is just doing business analyst? That's another question. So that again, when we're talking about job roles, and and what has to be done, or the powers that must be delivered, and I iba define business, I'm a business analyst as anyone who does business analysis, including business analysts, what I think is kind of phrase because if business analysis is, is like the these abstractor that invoke in globes, everyone, like product owners, product managers, project managers, and business managers, and business analysts, what are we talking about the business owners here are talking about the business hours there. So there are two different business analysts in our conversation, usually when we're talking about business analysis, and they have the same name, but one is abstract. And there's always room for that. The other one is specific. And these specific rules may be changing. I see that in the past, the specific role of the business analyst was very much related to creating documentation, very much related to some kind of bureaucracy, very much passion to projects. So in a project, there was a phase of eliciting requirements, and someone had to put all those things in a specification and get some sign offs from everyone. That was the role of that business analyst. And that business analyst is changing. Today, I will say that the main role of the of the business owners in an organization is to foster a mindset of business analysis, helping everyone in your organization to have a business analysis mindset to focus on business outcomes to understand what are we delivering? If it's a project, or product and initiative, that's a continuous evolvement that that doesn't change the needs of understanding what are our goals, where everybody wants? Where do everybody wants to go? And how can we collaborate to get there. And so it's less the the one that say that the business analyst is less responsible for doing business analysis, and more is more responsible to guarantee that business analysis is helping in their organizations. So it's more coach them. concentrator of communications, he is not a funnel, he is not a bottleneck, he must be the connector of everybody. So let's come on everybody, let's get together and try to solve things. That's that's the role of the professional business analysts.

Joe Newbert 13:43
That's a nice definition. So so a little bit of a recap on what I think I'm hearing in there is a skill, it's not a role, right? It's a skill that's not unique to the business analysts, if we don't have a monopoly on it, these skills are available to everybody free to use. And by doing so, they should see some marked improvement in in the kind of work that they're doing that we need to be have a responsibility for developing business analysis as a discipline as a mindset you've not used the word yet I don't think but I'm sure they would. But let's let's go back to the way developing this this this mindset for business analysis inside corporate organizations to try and ingrain it in the culture to coach other people in doing it paying attention this kind of stuff is that sort of way you did summarize where you see it heading

Speaker 2 14:41
perfectly. Let's come back to the mindset because that type of thing, right, so let's let's say that we're talking about not the professional business analysts, whereas he he was here, the professional business analyst, but we're talking about here about these abstract concepts of business analyst. Anyone who is applying business analysis is a business analyst, this abstract one, in what unite all those different roles or specialties. In this connected stuff, I call it a business alliances, mindset, people who are applying our way of thinking that change the way they behave. So these business analysis mindset, when I look for a mindset applied for an organization, it could be called a corporate culture. So when we have a corporate culture, related on business analysis, mindset, it that makes everyone to think about what we have to change in terms of business outcomes, how can we get better business outcomes? How can what I am doing reflects on everything else? And using that mindset, everyone can also be a business owners visionary Well,

Joe Newbert 16:10
it's actually a line I've said before everybody's a business analyst, just many of them don't realize it.

Speaker 2 16:19
Or they should be. Sometimes they are not yet, then what if we're looking for a nimble enterprise for a corporation that can change and can react to changes? Firstly, we need everybody to have this mindset.

Joe Newbert 16:35
But it's a bit a bit I mean, if we look at her business analysis, some of the purest things within it, it's about solving a problem, exploiting an opportunity. It's it's that kind of thing. It's looking at feasibility, return on investment, those are decisions that everybody does in some shape, or form, probably every week in their life. So there is this sort of, there's this business analysis happening, I think, in most people, and particularly in organizations inside of corporates, even more. So. Business Analysis is about business decisions. It's about data, and decisions and data happening everywhere. And with that thought, I want to come back to the word that you've used. Coaching, right? If you see part of this responsibility of these business analysts down here to sort of coach business analysis, in this abstract, what sort of opportunities? How could we go about sort of being able to do that, in many ways, we've struggled in the past to demonstrate the value of business analysis from down here to the people up here. So how can we now shift that into such a way that we're actually able to coach them seems like quite a step to take.

Speaker 2 17:54
I don't think that's very hard to show the value of business analysis, maybe it's hard to understand what business analysis is. But when you just understand that business is related to understanding the problems that we have, and taking better decisions of how to solve those problems, or, or use those opportunities that are variable, it's not hard to, to sell it to anyone, people just have to understand what it is. And when we talk about fostering business analysis in an organization, we may foster those, that that mindset in different ways. One of the ways that we can foster business owners in their organization is breakthrough, to share the the way of the way the business owners think we've ever won. And that's probably sharing some techniques that we use some concepts that we are related to concepts like before taking a solution, try to understand what's the problem, right? Try to align everything that you have in our solution for our business go simple, simple concepts, like something that we like very much like requirements, what is our requirements, people when they understand that you should take a course of action they must understand in write down what the expect at the end? That's very basic, right? So what are you expecting at the end before before starting? What are you expecting as a result, as an outcome, let's try to write it down as requirements. That's a powerful concept. So there are some small things that you can teach everyone and everyone to understand. And there are also as you're talking at the beginning, some specializations. So we will we will probably have some experts in business intelligence looking for data data scientist that must do business analysis very well. Otherwise, they're just doing scientific stuff. for nothing, the rows, so they must know what kind of outcome they're trying to bring to the business. So can they can use the data to get better decisions. I see business data scientist as a specialization of a business analyst or it should be a product owner as I spin is a specialization of a business analyst who is doing business that is focused on a specific product, right. And we can have user experience analysts who are also doing business analysis, but focusing on the spirit and experience of the user. So we may have different specializations and having business analysis to foster all those specializations, right. So the coach, the coach role, will be for someone who is called professional business analyst, what are you doing, oh, I pray to get business analysis in the whole organization, helping everybody to understand their needs, and I will try to find out what's the best way to do that. And that can change from one company to another. It's not just right to specifications and requirements. But it may be part of it.

Joe Newbert 21:15
Yeah, I think I mean, you started off, you said, you're a consultant. That's the badge or the label that you were that you help your clients understand. And in many ways, what I heard you describing there was becoming an internal consultants really consulting to people in these different disciplines, assisting with them in understanding the problem, defining solutions, and just sort of generally being that as you say, Cut let me let me coach you in some good sort of practices, and let's walk towards whatever it is your you're trying to solve at this point of time. I like that. Let's let's jump a little bit then. And I know, I know, you've done a little bit of a video on this as well, I think it's worth touching on because I was very excited. It was very interesting. But let's talk about the day in the life. It's that dilo that acronym, okay, a day in the life of a business analyst in I don't know 2030 2035. What does that look like to you for Brizio.

Speaker 2 22:21
I've talked a little bit about what is individual people who wants to watch the video, you can share the link with them later. But the video is is very focused on on the usage of AI to do business analysis. And what we can see that in in that video, is that the business analyst is not just playing a room of a documentary, or someone who is just working with projects, there are not even project in that video. That's business and a very nimble business. And what I mean by that is that the business is very fast in sensing and responding to change. So what the analyst does in that story is he starts asking the artificial intelligence, what are the trends, what are happening, what's happening. And in that specific story, that scenario, the artificial intelligence has the ability of Jeff TPT to use natural language and just chats, we already are seen in interactivity but Shut up, he says to return. So in that future, it's not just written but you can talk and there is a an avatar talking to you something about the interface, right. But the most interesting part of it is that the artificial intelligence has access to your business transactional information. So it can look for your transaction information, give you trends can give you what's happening can give you what's coming wrong, what have changed in the last few months. And so can bring you a lot of insights. And you can do a lot of analysis talking to the the artificial intelligence and the artificial intelligence also have access to your business knowledge base, your enterprise architecture base, so it understands very well your business, your processes, your business rules, your requirements, everything that's related to your business, their artificial intelligence have access to that. So it's very easy to create analysis to create diagrams and the artificial intelligence can create those for that for you. And you can just chat you still have to have the business analysis terminology, you still must understand it. I can I can make a parallel if I was talking with an artificial intelligence that have all my healthy, historic and knows everything about the human body. I would not know what to ask because I'm not a magician, a doctor, I don't know how to use, it's useless for me, I will still have to study medicine to talk to an AI. But I would not have to collect the data myself put into a spreadsheet and try to understand it I don't know, use a lot of software isn't difficult interface, I could just chat with artificial intelligence. That's what these videos that are mentioned, the business eyes is doing is just chatting with artificial intelligence, and not just making analysis, but also making an experienced what's the name? Experiments, right? So he say, Oh, if I change these, so let's try these in a small group in the artificial intelligence also have access to the behavior of the applications. And they can change the behavior of the applications, changing source code, or changing models or changing business rule or stuff like that. And so the business analysts can even change the business behavior, just chatting with their artificial intelligence.

Joe Newbert 26:09
And that, I'm glad you brought that up. Because that was the most interesting point for me in that video. And I'm going to say that You crossed the line. Okay. And what I what I mean, what I mean by that is, historically, as business analysts and developers and programmers and everybody, we don't touch production, and you touched production, you did an A B test, basically, that experiment, as you called it, you did an A B test, I remember it. Oh, and if we change that role, can we just can we run that on like the next 1000? As a little sort of test group, you touched production? I thought that was fantastic. Right? You because You crossed the line. And now you see you've opened up a new sort of world of opportunity in my mind. So I want to ask you, do you see business analysts being able to affect decisions that can be themselves directly in a business scenario in production in the future?

Speaker 2 27:14
Right. There's the person, the business analyst, and the business analysts, right. Okay. So these business analysts over the top are changing the business every day, they're taking the decisions, because all CEO or CIO, or business manager are business analysts, they're analyzing the business, Martin annual, they are trying to understand what's most valuable and taking decisions. This professional business analysts right here should be. He's not taking the course. When they're taking the calls, maybe they're not being called professional business analysts. They're called product owners, or product managers. But look, for me, those are job functions that are doing business analysis with some additional responsibilities, right, some additional responsibilities. I see that business analysis is needed to call decisions, I may call someone neutral in less than Oh, give me your advice. But I have the call. That's what happens today, usually, when I call a professional business analyst, or even a consultant. But I can do the analysis myself. And I would say that most part of analysis are not made by a neutral analyst, or made by the ones who are who have the extra tool to call it so that video, I'm not very worried about the job functional or the job title of that of that guy. I know he's doing business events, because I can see that he's analyzing the business. He's looking for data. He's trying to get good decisions, understand that the options that he has and call for take a decision in the video. At the end. If you look at the end of the story, I added some rolls in and validations. That should be like there's a process to change production. Right? And the business analysts say oh, can I make the test? Yes, you have authority to do that. But can I change? Yes. Production. So oh, there's a line of authorizations that must be done. Oh, please include also someone and there's a rule that he discusses, but that makes it clear that for changing stuff in production, you need some evaluations, you need some people who have the authority to do that. But what is really missing in that story is the programmers is the project there is no project because the artificial intelligence made it out up automatically. And I don't see very much difficulty in doing that, especially when we're not just thinking about source code and programming, but think about process flows, that you can change and change the business behavior or business rules that are in the decision model. And you can change the structure of the decision and change the business behavior. So why not have an artificial intelligence doing all that automatically?

Joe Newbert 30:30
Yeah, no, no, indeed, as you say, it's got access to the full knowledge base, full code base, hits history of the organization has got everything it needs. If it does have the capability, then it's got everything it needs. And I think, you know, it's a tool, right? And I think as you highlight, the tool needs to be in the right hands, okay, it can't be in the wrong hands, that person needs to sort of know what they're doing, what the impact of their changes their their choices and things, I'm actually going to just take a jump to the righteous. There's another bit on your survey response that I want to dive into some of what people say, on the show is similar to each other. And sometimes a word pops up. That's new, that somebody hasn't mentioned before, I think it's important to, to explore some of those outliers, particularly when it's such an important word like this compassion, having compassion for people. And we, you know, we're talking about AI, and you're talking, you know, you're sort of saying that there are no developers, there's no designers, you know, there's just AI people have been replaced, which seems like a good point to maybe have some compassion. Right? So so how do you see compassion playing a big part of our future?

Speaker 2 31:50
Right? So first of all, I understand compassion is the key verb to have a business analyst to do well, business analysis, we must, we must have compassion and compassion, as a word is a collection of two different words calm and passion. Right? So calm, not in English. But in Portuguese, it's easier for us to get the root of it, because it's the same word that we use to say with, okay, so called Passion is with passion. And passion is about feeling about about sentiments, about pain, right? So passion is about pain, about feeling about joy, about compassion is with feeling. So if you have compassion, you're feeling ways you were feeling with the honor. So if I have compassion for my user, I should think, if I will use this product that I building, what would I need here? How would I like it to be? So the requirements of the user becomes very clear for me, because I, I'm feeling his pain and feeling they're suffering, and I don't want to suffer. So. But I should not just be have compassion for the user. If I have compassion for the developer, that is waiting my specification, I would say, if I will develop these specification or these requirements that I receiving from these business analysts, what doubts would I have? So I can write specification a way that the developer wants to read? If I have compassion for the the QA did the quality assurance testing, I will say, if I will test the solution, what should I need? So I will look for the requirements and see if they're clear. If I have compassion for the shareholder, or for organization, I will say, if I'm paying for these projects, will they pay for these requirements? So compressional makes me think about all stakeholders and feel their pain, like if they were my I could even have compassion for the environment. And I could see if I will believe five more 100 years. What do I expect for the future of my world? And how this project that I'm involved in will impact the wording 500 years from now. So what you're saying about AI and bringing AI into the into the sport of compassion is well we are looking for AI as a very new tool. Very nice one, and we can have very great improvements of productivity. Why? Let's have compassion for others for for people who will lose their job should II change people from AI are what are we going to do with this productivity? Are we just going to get more money into the pocket of shareholders? Or are we getting a better society? In that video that you mentioned it, at the end of the video, the analyst does his job in five minutes I dropped that would take, I don't know, mouths to be done today. And he does that in five minutes and go to play tennis, are we building more productivity to play tennis and have fun and enjoy our lives and have a better life, or just to make more stuff in less time, that's what we have been doing the last decade or our few decades, right? So having compassion, not just for the shareholders, not just for the user, but for your team, for our collaborators for the environment, for the testers, for your, your suppliers, understanding the needs of all stakeholders, and thinking of those needs, if they are your owns, makes very good business analysis. So that's why I believe is the is the Kerviel to have business owners that change the way we are working. I'm not just working to do specifications, I'm not just working to get more profit. That's part of it. Because I also have compassion for the shareholder. But that's just part of it. I should have compassion for everyone, and try to understand put myself in the shoes of all the stakeholders. And so we can think in a better future. And that's really important.

Joe Newbert 36:44
Yeah, it is. The words empathy is springing to mind, understanding, putting ourselves in other people's shoes, basically thinking from their, their perspectives. And in many ways, your answer made me think of the word holistic. And I feel like you took that word holistic, actually, to a lot higher level there. The other thing that's interesting is I mean, I did do the segue, because obviously the retrenchment of the developer, because of AI, and having some compassion for that, and and you raise a very good point, like, you know, in the past, things have been driven by finance, they have been driven by productivity, volume, speed, you know, all those kinds of metrics are the things that typically have driven business. And there are some rays of sunshine that come out. I mean, I look at Patagonia as an organization, I think what a fantastic company, you know, that they do have the world don't don't have compassion for the world, and the kinds of things that they're doing there. And interestingly, I'm thinking of the word human. I'm thinking of the word it. But we need to bring them together to be humanity, and to make sure our decisions are sort of good for humanity in all of this as it starts to blend.

Speaker 2 38:02
That's beautiful. Yeah, like it it. You mentioned it, I think it's, it's every initiative that we do on every project, or every change that we do in business, the way we deal with business, I see that business analysis, I was born in it, we still have this it accent, as I do have an accent from Brazil. And the way I speak when we do business a lot, we still have an accent of it. But we should do business analysis for the business. And it's very wider than it so we should be looking for every every type of investment that we're doing, and try to, to bring this kind of compassion, and not just compassion, but trying to understand what are the best decisions, trying to be wise and taking decisions and using compassion as a guide to know that these decisions are taking care of everyone who is related to them.

Joe Newbert 39:01
It's a nice Northstar, isn't it? It's something to keep to keep your eye on and not and not be distracted by some of the stuff along the way. I'm sort of tracking through your answers here and thinking which things we talked about which which have we not? I feel like we've talked about context and understanding. I feel we've talked a little bit about design and solution. But something that we've perhaps not gotten into yet that I think is worth exploring into the future. We've talked about consulting, you know, sort of advising around helping people with business analysis, but what about change? What about leading change? Do you think there's a future in leadership for bas sort of driving this change in organizations?

Speaker 2 39:45
I understand that when we talk about business analysis where you're always talking about change. There is no business analysis, if no changes in place. You were just I didn't know what you're doing. If you're not changing anything. You were just running a business, that's business operations and business analysis. The way I, I usually present, the business analysis mindset is in opposition of another way of thinking. So business alliances mindset, I present it in six different components. Some of them are about the way you think, in order of those competence or related about the way you act. And I always presented it in opposition to another way of thinking, another mindset that I call business operations mindset. When you have a business operations mindset, you are just focusing on doing your job, you are focusing on our silo, you are focusing on our department, you are trying to get the best results or the best outputs from your process. And when you have a business analysis mindset, you are looking for how can we change the way we operate? To get better business outcomes? How can we change to explore opportunities from this holistic view from this view of women, because my point of view is not the truth. It's just a point of view and our point of view, I have to look from different points of view, trying to understand the best I can off the reality and trying to understand where are the opportunities? Where are the gaps that we can exploit to change the business and make the business ours better? And so for me change and business analysis are so connected, that I cannot think about business analysis without thinking change. One question that you you made me in by waiting was was my definition of business? Yes, I do. I do have a definition on my on my YouTube channel. It's called business on Amazon in one minute. So if someone wants to see that there, it's there as the is the the initial video for someone who is just entering China, what the idea is, when I say business, it's a collection of components that are put together to get some outcomes. So a business is composed of people, processes, technology, policies, rules, strategy goals. So there's a lot of components that compose a business, right infrastructure, all those components should deliver some stakeholders, something, some outcomes that they're expecting, right? So business analysis, is what we use the skill set and the mindset that we use to understand all those components to make them clearer. So we can look for it understand what can be change it to get better outcomes for those stakeholders. So that's what business analysis is, when we're doing business analysis. We're trying to understand how can I change the business or any component of those business process systems, the business rules, the infrastructure, the people or the culture or their skills? How can I change the business or just the business so it can get better business outcomes for their stakeholders? That's what we're doing. It's not just it. It's the whole business. Right? So

Joe Newbert 43:23
yeah, that is, I like the picture you paint there. And as you're moving your hands and gestating and you're doing this, I'm thinking of as like a configurator, as well, not just an analyst, but a configurator. Who's moving, realigning, tweaking, finding the best having that that compassion and an in there as well. You talked about perspectives, you know, different people's perspectives. And I think that's a nice note to end on with thanking you for sharing your perspective with the audience. It's really opened up my mind to think about a couple of things as I explore this topic of future business analysts. So thanks for joining me for Brizio has been really cool catching up.

Unknown Speaker 44:07
It was a great pleasure, Joe, thank you for the invitation.

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About Fabricio Laguna

Fabrico Laguna (/in/fabricio-laguna//) is a business consultant and instructor for more than 25 years, working with methodology, solution development, business analysis, systems analysis, project management, business architecture, and systems architecture. Known as The Brazilian BA, he is the primary reference for Business Analysis in Brazil. Fabricio is an author and producer of videos, articles, classes, lectures, and playful content, and can explain complex things in a simple and easy-to-understand way. 

About Joe Newbert

Joe Newbert (/joenewbert) is is a consultant, a writer, a speaker, but above all, a teacher. As Chief Training Officer at Business Change Academy, he delivers some of the best business analysis training on the planet. He co-authored the original IIBAยฎ Business Analysis Competency Model and served as Non-Executive Director on the IIBAยฎ South Africa Strategy Board. Joe is Showrunner at the business analysis podcast network OneSixEight FM and Editor-In-Chief at the Inter-View Report. And he also writes in fits and starts on Newbert's Blog.

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